There is no longer a sacred art - Gurdjieff quote

Thank you Teo.

Even though Gurdjieff wrote the quote years ago I think it applies today.

Creators and craftsmen of fine quality items are disappearing because the public wants mass produced junk. Many are not even aware of the beauty of rare quality products. People don't want to pay for genuine artwork, even though many artists are willing to sell their artwork for very low prices in order to buy the basic necessities of life.

In this age of overuse of cellphones, computers and living in the fast lane in order to make more and more money, who has time or appreciation for genuine artwork?

I think that it is equally difficult to find a cobbler to make a beautiful pair of shoes which I definitely consider to be artwork.

I don't want to sound negative, but we are in the boffing arena and you did post the quote.
ython:

[This message was edited by Inda on Tuesday October 21st, 2003 at 04:14 PM.]

Thanks for the quote Teo.

People are not interested in beautiful quality thingsd today. They don't even recognize quality. All they want is cheap mass produced stuff. I doub't anyone would be interested in beautiful shoes made by a cobbler when they can have an ugly looking pair of running shoes which actually are not cheap. Most people don't even know what a beautifully made shoe is.
As far as quality craftsmen and artists go, they haven't got much of a chance.
I don't come to this boffing area, but now I guess I really did it. Needed to get this off my chest before the next person with a cellphone sitting beside me drives me to eternity.

Sue

artist: Reda Mark


Love,

Lilie

Gurdjieff was right Teo.
This is still true now.
People pretend to understand quality,
yet they don't have a clue.

Thank you for posting.
Gisele

Hi Teo and Friends.

Having had a long term association with an adult school that offered both fine arts and crafts courses I observed the jealous reflexes of those who think that there is a fine line that divides the two. I think there is a point to be made that a craft like photography is less likely to be a "fine arts" craft in spite of the fact that some photography is incredibly good - than a craft like leathermaking, silversmithing, all the ceramic arts, woodworking, etc. Photography is dependent on the lens and the aperture and the film to create an image. And no matter how many varitions and permutations you do to a photograph, even if the end product is "commercial art" like a book cover, it can never be the same as an idea realized from the mind and the hands alone. If there is too much technology between the idea and the byproduct most of the work the work is clearly craft i.e. manipulation of tools and materials.

In a film for example, if the film is based on a book, the book is given the highest esteem as art; the screenplay from the book is given less; and the film usually invites comments about how you have to have read the book first. I've seen films where I like the film as much as the book. But I've never seen a film I liked that was made from a book I didn't like. . .

It's true that a metalurgist will use all at his or her disposal to fabricate a sculpture. But what makes fine art "fine art" is that spontaneous and original quality that we call the "breath of life." Most sculptors start from a drawing or model before they call the foundry. And even there is a lot of technique, what is realized is still the pure idea and handiwork with an element of both art and craft.

A photograph can have a breath of life to it. But it is in the image realized by the photographer but not imagined by the photographer. A derivitive piece of music that is played well and with both the signature of the performer and and the creator still present in what you hear can also have a breath of life. But it will never be spontaneous or original. It can be very good. Go on and dance to it!

A good craftsperson is usually happy with being a good craftsperson and knows the general distinction between "art" and "craft," and if he or she is an artist at heart, they will ignore the general definitions and make themselves and their collectors happy without defining the fine lines.

Some people would tell you that what defines something as craft vs. art is the price tag. Here you can get into a discussion of what ought to be vs. what is - and that could be disturbing.

I had a teacher of fine arts at Oberlin, Toby Raitze a sculptor, who thought that fine artists should keep track of their hours of labor - if only just to make sure they weren't living too much under the poverty line. . .

You'll find most fine art is practically given away. Craftspeople seem to have a better grasp of that. And "fine arts" crafts people nearly make it an Enron scheme the way they can sometimes overprice their work.

Gurdjieff had a lot to say about the importance of making people pay something. In the end it's all about fairness and what's reasonable - and whether we do put an appropriate value on what is not from an assembly line or a country where people are paid nineteen cents an hour, the rate we pay prisoners here. (The license plate crew at Folsom gets twenty one cents an hour for that, but they have to give up a comfortable cell for a smaller cubicle to get assigned to that detail.

Cheers :applause :

Sorry for the typos:

"If there is too much technology between the idea and the byproduct, most of the work that goes into a work is clearly craft i.e. the manipulation of tools and materials."

No fine artist worth his or her salt would tell you there should be no emphasis on tools or materials.