Today certainly has been one of wonderment. Not really a joyful wondering, but one of "I wonder why?" Why are we here? What is our purpose? What is the reason people are even born, if they are just going to die and go back to heaven. I mean if we come from heaven, why even bother to have this journey on Earth? These questions have never perplexed me until now. Why even bother with all the lessons and suffering and wars and what not? Why not just stay where things are good and we can just roam around in our long flowing white robes all day long?
I've really been feeling empty. I go out to the book store to sit with a cup of coffee or Chai and read books by John Edward or Sylvia Browne. It seems that everyone has just a little bit different truth on the after life. The Catholics seem to really like to teach about a final judgement (I guess other Christian religions do too), but Edwards and Browne say the same thing, but call it a life review. I guess it's the same thing, just a different way of saying it. To some there is an awful place called Hell, to others, hell is just going through a revolving door and learning over and over again until we get it right.
Personally? I can't see a Hell perse. I think those who were truly evil, Hitler, Stalin, Nero and others of that ilk do go back to learn again, but they get progressively better. I just can't see a God who would punish one so.
I really miss my Dad. Even though we often didn't get along and I felt like I was being interrogated when I would talk to him, I knew he loved me very much and I really loved him too. I just wanted to talk to him like one friend to another and have a conversation. He had a hard time having conversations with anyone though. Every talk was "yes" or "no" questions. To my Mom and sisters, and even to his golf buddies.
With kids, oh with children, grand kids, great grand kids, the neighbors children and so many others, that was his Zen. He was able to let go and be so happy with them.
You see, my Dad was a kid at heart. He loved getting down on the floor with them and playing horsie, wrestling, playing little jokes with fake bugs and invisible ink and joy buzzers. He loved being with and being a kid. He would give nick names to many of his grand kids. My oldest, Alex, was and always will be "Baby Giant". A Great Granddaughter was "Bright Eyes" My oldest sister was Mamo-Belle. My other sibling, was Moxica or just plain Moxie. Me? my name is top secret and if I gave it out, well....

I often sit in solitude, wondering what he is doing in the afterlife. What he talks about and who he visits. What job does he have and does he think about us here much?
I keep thinking that they day he passed has some synchronistic meaning. I know your Dad's birthday is one... Dad passing at 81 on your Dad's 81st. But it seems to me that there is something else, but I just cant put my finger on it. I know his Mother died on May 27, 1924 when he was just over 2 months old and May 27 is Alex's birthday... but what of May 9th? I saw him take his last breath on that day, but May 10th was the official day of death to give us more time with his funeral arrangements.

I called Sandi tonight to talk about things, while she didn't know what to tell me. It was just so very nice to hear her voice and laugh and just talk about things I would never talk to my Mom about, like chastity belts and how did females pee from them? Sandi said "you and I have some very interesting conversations." I had to agree. The day after Dad passed I called her to tell her the sad news. She was crying with me which made me feel that much closer to her. When the conversation was winding down, it came so naturally from me. "I love you Sandi" with nary a hesitation came "I love you too." There came the words I longed to hear for so long. I know that she does with no doubt. Things are still going slowly but I am OK with that.
Love, Frank

Dear Frank,

Thank you for this interesting post. I cannot answer the question of Hell, because I do not know. I do not belong to any one religion, but embrace all.I believe that when the spirit leaves the body, there will be enlightenment

************************************************
"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

- Albert Einstein

Still sending my condolences dear Frank.


Mainly just sending you love and prayer energy, and an ear to hear what you wish to share.

I grew up in a strange time period where it was common for people to say they "got things out" in their "rap groups" if you can believe that... RAP GROUPS! HAH! LOL well I suppose the ghetto-fabulous do that nowadays.. Anyway my point is, I think it is great that you are pouring out your feelings, sharing what you are going through with us here. Thanks! It is great to be able to "join" your prayer and intentions.

Our dear Deepak Chopra talks a lot about the transformation that happened when his father passed on (rest in peace), and in some ways he became his father, well in some ways. They live on in us, in our hearts, as aspects of us, I think.

quote:

Originally posted by Francois:
Today certainly has been one of wonderment. Not really a joyful wondering, but one of "I wonder why?" Why are we here? What is our purpose? What is the reason people are even born, if they are just going to die and go back to heaven. I mean if we come from heaven, why even bother to have this journey on Earth? These questions have never perplexed me until now. Why even bother with all the lessons and suffering and wars and what not? Why not just stay where things are good and we can just roam around in our long flowing white robes all day long?

Boyo, good questions!?!

Did you see Total Recall, where he was in a virtual reality helmet, as a sort of vacation? He had decided he wanted to be a spy, well he half way decided on the "plot," and they sent him into the virtual reality to experience it. I thought it amazing that a violentish movie would have such an interesting beginning...

Perhaps life is a "virtual reality" for the soul to experience? Being eternal, it surely wants some things to experience eh? Whether you are over-spiritual mumbo-jumboish, or over-materialistic hear-and-now, it seems the best thing to do is make the most of your experiences, and be glad that you can! A lot of people don't have the opportunity we do to experience what we do. That may not help when it comes to tragic experiences, but overcoming tragedies and learning from it is - after the sadness and bitterness - a great lesson eh?



I personally like how in the Chemetan or Egyptian mythology one is rowed across to the other side, it sounds peaceful and surely there is a transition across some light-reflecting something in the transition, and many cultures have rituals of speaking certain things, or even celebrating that one crosses over to heaven and back into the hands of God.

When my step-mother Bernice passed, in the Hebrew tradition one year later there is a second kind of "send-off." Maybe the soul or something is floating around for a year, seeing closely how people are remembering him or her, eh? Your dear father would be glad that you are wondering about such truths, a credit to how much he ment to you, and how you felt and feel about him.

I was really sad when my grandmother Eugenia passed on, got sort of weird actually, and a friend made me feel much better by saying: "Well now you have a guardian on the other side..." I'm not even sure how, but it made me feel better.

I am sure that all the love and emotions you are pouring out about your father helps make his spirit rich in love and care, and he deserves a great "send off," rest in peace dear father of Frank. Your stories about his fun and kind aspects with kids and such, this all tells the "heart measurers" on the other side of his compassion and love for other people. This surely sets him high and brightly in heaven. Amen.

quote:

Things are still going slowly but I am OK with that.
Love, Frank

That is as good as many of us can ask for! I'm glad you share of yourself here dear Frank, and I'm sorry to go on and on in this reply, but I think that these are great questions you pose, worth thinking on for us all! Givnology is rich in compassion and spiritual seeking kinds of thinks because of sharing just as you do. Yay!


Wishing you the best journey dear father of Frank!

Love and light being, Teo

Hi Inda, I too embrace a number of faiths. Cafeteria Style ReligionI call it. There is so much out there to digest as far as the afterlife goes. I guess we wont really truly know until we go. I certainly am not going to be an ass to people just to test things to see if there is a hell or not, although I would bet on the latter.
Teo, thanks for your kind words and prayers

quote:

Perhaps life is a "virtual reality" for the soul to experience?

This certainly is something to chew on. Since we hear over and over that this life is an illusion... well just maybe it is more than we realize and our true selves are still in heaven or the beyond or Nirvana.. whatever you want to call it, and this here... Earth... is a virtual game that we are using to learn more about ourselves. Another movie to think about was the one from many years back: The Never Ending Story, which was about the beautiful world Fantasia which was inside people's minds.... I haven't seen it in a long while, so I wont go on, lest I mess it up. Anyway I think you know what I mean.
Death certainly has it's moments of bliss for the living. My Mom and I watch TV in the living room... where my Dad passed, the furniture is set up differntly now but I often look at the space where the hospital bed that he laid in was and think about his last few breaths... mouth wide open in a relaxed state, the breaths becoming easier and easier. The fight to live gone and now he was totally open to the bliss of heaven. I was open to that bliss too. I just wish I could describe it better but there are no words for it... I felt that he was lifted by Angels.. it certainly was beautiful to watch and very calming.
On the other hand, there has been a lot of anger at him for not fighting the disease when he had a chance, not getting out and enjoying life... but that was how he was... "Cancer? Well I guess this is it then, better make my peace." A lesson for the rest of us to live life.
We continue to bump into people at banks and different stores that say how much they will miss him. He would come to them with a joke or a story and make their days.
Well I have gone on enough here...
I am thankful for this place and for all of you!
Love, Frank

Dear Frank,
This is the age old question and I don't have the answer, and will not until I go.

Just think about your Dad in the eternal bright light. I am sure that is where he is.

Love,
Sue

quote:

Originally posted by Francois:
...Since we hear over and over that this life is an illusion... well just maybe it is more than we realize and our true selves are still in heaven or the beyond or Nirvana.. whatever you want to call it, and this here... Earth... is a virtual game that we are using to learn more about ourselves. Another movie to think about was the one from many years back: The Never Ending Story, which was about the beautiful world Fantasia which was inside people's minds.... I haven't seen it in a long while, so I wont go on, lest I mess it up. Anyway I think you know what I mean...

I NO 2 WELL!

Again, firstly, my condolences to you, your dear mother, family and all concerned. SENDING QUANTUM HEALING LOVE.

Also, I just loooove how dear Sue said:

quote:

Originally posted by Sue 1:
Just think about your Dad in the eternal bright light. I am sure that is where he is.

Very practical, yet spiritual and surely true!

OK now back to your questions, and our sort of 'discussion,' well these are discussion forums eh?

Dear Frank, and this is a true true reason I am glad you are here, you ponder these same unponderables, or ununponderables.. etc.. he he..

In seeing some dear friends leave this plane(t), I have been all through the thoughts and emotions of, maybe it's better on the other side? Maybe they are all waiting for me with a big celebration and party? But suicide is one of the worst sins! But when in slavery, like the movie "The Beloved" where the mother kills her children to 'escape' slavery, maybe leaving a hell isn't so wrong? But then... my final argument to myself was this:

A lot of ancestors went through a lot of crap for me to be here. Many mothers were on their knees washing floors. Many didn't party all night and worked hard for my opportunities. What an incredibly disgraceful thing it would be for me to not appreciate what they did - and do - for me, and not take advantage of my opportunities to do things, great or whatever, at least appreciate MY LIFE IS BETTER THAN THEIRS!

You know?

One could also remember how many sperms tried to get to the egg, eh? How rough and painful youth was - I mean it was incredibly fun too, but the growing pains! YeeeeeEEEOUCH! All that that we went through to get to where we are now, wow, what a shame to not appreciate that!

I have been pondering a post topic something about Smart Car or Good Pet something about how if there is a soul that is our source, maybe we are the smart vehicle for it eh? More and more cartoons have cars that talk to the driver, and with questions like you ponder, we are likely "talking to the driver" as well eh?

Also...

You notice how pets almost always look like their "owners?" which ownes which I always wonder.. he he..

Well, maybe we are "pets," of our souls? There are very interesting similarities to how we treat our animal pets, and perhaps how our souls treat us! Lets take the example of a dog. The dog knows with smell and his extra senses things that we, the owner, doesn't. The soul wouldn't know the physical things we experience eh? I mean, we are it's ability to experience things, in a way.

I'll tell you, dear Frank, and this is something I have been waiting to share in that SMART CAR or SOULS PET post but I'll share it since you questioned these things... at one point I told my soul, through positive affirmations, saying things to myself while in trance or something like that - before sleep, around meditation, anyway, I told my soul: "Dear soul, you may not mind pain, as you are timeless and maybe it is just a tickle to you, but this body I'm in has a real problem with it. I have had enough of that pain business. I don't need any more. Please help keep me, my family and friends away from that pain business please? Thank you eternally." OK that may sound silly, but like we have been talking about we have an eternal part, maybe it doesn't mind pain in the ways we do? Well anyway, I sum this idea all up thusly:

May we be in tune with our higher selves and manifest the best possibilities in our lives for all concerned. We are grateful for the joys, health and fulfillment of our highest goals. Thank you God and the Angels. Amen. And so it is.

"Every problem is an opportunity. With unlimited patience everything happens exactly at the right time."

I'm just soooo glad, dear Frank, and all, for the opportunity given me to be aware of these things, the opportunity to appreciate what I can appreciate, and the great gift to share what little wisdom or understanding I can with friends. I think sharing wisdom with others we care about is one of the highest blessings, and through Givnology and all of you friends I am so incredibly rich and my heart is full because we can share our paths, ups and downs, and experiences with each other.

And this may be the final outcome from dearly loved one's passing. We come to appreciate what we really have in the here and now, and decide to let other people know how we feel - not miss an opportunity to say "I love you," you know? So once again thanks for starting this awesome thread dear Frank, sending you and yours lots and lots of healing energy, and you are an angel for sharing of yourself in this post. XOXOXO

Love and light being, Teo

Thank you Sue! I do picture my Dad often in a bright light, but more often I sit and wonder.. "What are you doing Dad?" I see him golfing... a lot. I just hope that the courses are a bit of a challenge. Things would get pretty boring if he hit holes in one all the time. I wonder if he has some kind of a job too. We always called him "The Count" because he was always counting things. The number of miles from home to the store, the number of minutes he had to wait for his appointment with the dentist. When he started chemo, he would look at his watch, which I am wearing now... to time the nurse in getting the fluids ready. He did this so much, that my sister bought him a stop watch. It's a good thing the nurse had a sense of humor... he was just teasing her. I do digress... with his timing of things and counting, I can see him as the keeper of the great book of life, counting out the minutes for people here.. since there really is no time up there...
Teo, you said...

quote:

Well, maybe we are "pets," of our souls? There are very interesting similarities to how we treat our animal pets, and perhaps how our souls treat us! Lets take the example of a dog. The dog knows with smell and his extra senses things that we, the owner, doesn't. The soul wouldn't know the physical things we experience eh? I mean, we are it's ability to experience things, in a way.

I find this is an interesting way of looking at life... I would compare it more to a Pet Rock however, since our body is only a suit for our soul. I couldn't be writing this reply, if my soul wasn't involved in the thought process, and boy are there a lot of thoughts besides just what this is about. A TV is on in the back ground, so I am listening to Letterman, this light is starting to annoy me, "Why don't you adjust it then Frank?" my psyche is teasing me. I am thinking too about the Pistons losing to the dreaded Heat and how the heck are the Tigers going to get out of there slump? Sandi is on my mind.. I miss her and finally, I am thinking about needing a job. All of this is coming through from the deep feelings of my soul to my brain and out to my fingers, and eyes, ears and so much more... there is a lot to ponder!
True the soul would have no clue about our physical pains.. "pain? what's that?" and that goes for physical as well as emotional. I have read somewhere that our Souls know no fear... all they really know is LOVE... When they take on our bodies, is when fear is taught.. by other souls who have taken on bodies... once we shed our bodies, at the end of this life, I think that fear is shed as well. At least for most of us. Others have to hold onto that fear in order to attone for their mistakes in another life.... just the way I see things. I hope this was a decent reply to what you wrote.. sometimes my ADD makes my attention span quite short...
All in all, I miss my Dad so very much and I look toward the day when I will see him again.
Love, Frank

quote:

Originally posted by Francois:
...I do digress... with his timing of things and counting, I can see him as the keeper of the great book of life, counting out the minutes for people here.. since there really is no time up there...
Teo, you said...

quote:

Well, maybe we are "pets," of our souls? There are very interesting similarities to how we treat our animal pets, and perhaps how our souls treat us! Lets take the example of a dog. The dog knows with smell and his extra senses things that we, the owner, doesn't. The soul wouldn't know the physical things we experience eh? I mean, we are it's ability to experience things, in a way.

I find this is an interesting way of looking at life... I would compare it more to a Pet Rock however, since our body is only a suit for our soul....

Hey I get to digress too! he he..

It's amazing, I am really drawn to share ideas about this eternal timeless soul buisiness... strange...

One time I had had too much coffee, and somehow I visualized a person, laying on a slab, like so full of coffee he was one big tense knot! It seemed like he never slept, and was just laying there to fool his body into thinging it was sleeping. Maybe that was Mr. Soul?

You know Frank, this is one of the main reasons I read a lot of spiritual books and stuff. Buddhists talk a lot about the soul is reincarnated, even sometimes looking around for what new body their teacher has taken on. Hindu stuff says bad karma or actions in previous lives can make someone you cheated lifetimes ago come back and get justice on "this" you!

So most of these teachings talk about a soul. I like what G. I. Gurdjieff said on the subject: when he was asked if we are eternal he turned it around in what I think was a fantastic way. He said "How long is eternal?" he talked about a part of the identity that could last after the body that could last one solar cycle - this fits in with some Hebrew beliefs, my stepmother passed and a year later they have a second send-off! - then he talked about another part that could last as long as our solar system. And then he conjectured that some aspect could possibly go on beyond that.

The way he turned it around and spoke of "how long is eternity?" really helped me. It confused me all the way back to ... common sense! There are also stories about entities that want to die, they are trapped and can't leave where they are. In the book "Brave New World" the hero at the end is killing these people and they are crying out in joy: "Wow! Pain! Wow! Death!" It is so bizarre.. but all of this just makes me come back om.. he he.. well, I once asked this smart lady at NASA about what if aliens are breeding us for food, and she told me the best answer I have ever heard: "If that's true, then I'm going shopping!"

So I think if we enjoy questioning what happens afterwards, then let's enjoy doing that. On another angle, there is no reason whatsoever to not enjoy what we have, since we don't really know, and live life to the fullest - being realistic so that we can enjoy it healthfully and happily as long as possible eh?

And I think that doing the above, is giving our ancestors, God, the Angels, Spirit Universe, Earth, basically everything, honor and appreciation for what we have.

How about this approach dear Frank: What if we have "a" soul, that is eternal though we are not. Why wouldn't that soul have a soul that is eternal compared to it? And on and on. Each cell of our bodies could be likened to a life, and those die and are reborn constantly. I personally don't think that we only have one soul. I think that within our current consciousness we have a few characters - like you mentioned part of you watching TV, another thinking about Sandi, another about your father, etc..

Thinking about all this eternal timeless soul business just makes me remember how insignifigant our lives are - in the big picture. The earth has been here a bazillion years, will be for another, and it is just the tiniest speck in the galaxy, and there are a bazillion galaxies! So... being that we are infinitesimle pieces of infinitesimle pieces etc. etc.. It all pops-my-eternal-questions chakra and I realize that it has been fun questioning this stuff, hopefully I go along with some new useful ideas, but to contrast all that enormity of infinity and eternity, and the minisculity of us in the big picture, I think I will make today a nice day, and tomorrow, and so on. I have just about the right size, importance, and longevity to do that, eh?

Digressology but it's been fun. Thanks for discussing this with me. Again condolences to you, your mother, family and all concerned. Knowing that your father is playing all the golf he ever wanted to, happily counting everything in the known universe, and making cute nicknames for everything.

Love and light being, Teo

Dear Frank.
Sorry to hear about your dad's passing.
Sending condolences and comfort.

Love
Vicky

Thank you Vicky and Teo. Sorry I've been thinking the past few days and communicating with my Dad.
The other night, I was dreaming about looking for my Dad's Mother's grave site. We've never been able to find the exact location of where he remainds are buried. I know this has always bothered him. This dream was very disturbing to me and I woke up. I had a feeling he was with me, but I wasn't ready to get any kind of visit from him, so I stayed up for a bit. I tired finally and fell back asleep when I had a good dream about having a conversation with the Beatles. I often have dreams about my favorite band.. mostly where I am playing guitar like I invented the instrument. Truth be known, I only know a few chords...Well, after this dream I was just sort of lying there, not anywhere near awake, but not fully asleep... you know that great time where you feel most at peace? It was at this time that I felt a pat on my back. I was lying on my right side and the pat came on my right shoulder blade, just hard enough for me to notice. I knew right off it was my Dad. No doubt about it. I was so very happy to know that he was with me and that he took care not to scare the crap out of me. My Dad is still with me... just in a different way.
Lvoe, Frank